Concern over Russia and Ukraine Med Schools
posted in - Education, - Palmdoc |Patdave has made a provocative post in the MMR Student Forums entitled Concern over Russia and Ukraine Med Schools (registration in the MMR required to view posts)
I have heard of a HO working in a public hospital in the Klang Valley, a graduate from a Ukranian medical school, who does not know even how to clerk a patient properly or take blood samples. I do not know how representative this HO is of Russian and Ukranian graduates in general. I am sure there are fine Russian medical schools but the concern is the overall quality of the training Malaysian students coming from the region. It may be suspect if the students are weak and somehow get into medical school despite poor grades. On top of that the weak students have to master a foreign language so I can’t imagine how such weak students can even get through medical school.
These weak HOs will at best be “retained” for an extended period of Housemanship. The trouble is, they are already “in the system”. The “system” permits sub-standard medical graduates (no matter from which medical school – local or foreign) to be registerable, as long as they come from a recognised medical school or if they pass the Unscheduled Examination. Perhaps indeed it is high time we had a Common qualifying exam for all?
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November 20th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
I seriously doubt the quality of those doctors produced by these Russian medical schools. My hospital regualrly take in students from these Medical schools for elective posting. They are not on JPA scholarship, they are on ‘FAMA’ scholarship.
These are the 3rd year students and I can tell you that they know absolutely nothing at least in my field of O&G. I asked them about their curiculum, they said thier faculty do not have a proper O&G professor, no structured training program, no proper wards for students to see patients. They only clerk average ONE patient in RUSSIAN in their posting in O&G. They spend most of their time studying their books in class room and their room (even though they are in clinical years). They have no written exam except viva.
They even asked me and some of other clinician to give them ‘tuition’.
I am more concern about the effect on our health system. These are the ‘jokers’ who eventually will be sent to our district hospital and work alone and start ‘killing’ patients.
I blamed this on politician who actively seeking medical seats in foreign countries because the demand is so high. I’m not surprice that when those Russian universities are unable to cope our demand, Malaysian will be going to AFrican countries to get medical degree. MMC just simply cannot fight those politicians
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
3rd year ukrainian/russian student = 2nd year local student…thats why it takes 6 years here, duh
November 23rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm
It is not so much a concern what year they belong to, it’s what Poor Doctor alleges which is more serious:
November 23rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Oh my, poor, poor doctor.
Once again lashing out with such little knowledge.
I beg to differ on your viewpoints.
Pointers:-
- Ukraine is NOT in Russia, as is Malaysia is not IN Singapore.
- I bet you only had that few Ukrainian students, as you’ve kept on using the same example over and OVER.
You criticise and insult students from Russian unis, yet you don’t have a full understanding of the curriculum and system there. Will you say, that doctors graduating from ALL other schools and countries are better than those from Russia? (and now you’ve extended to include Africa. What next? I don’t wanna’ know). I know of several doctors, graduated from Russia, who are on-par with the local/UK grads.
- I believe, as a doctor, we must help each other, in turn help save lives; not criticize, insult, and indirectly cause harm.(First do no harm..not even SECONDary harm. You disagree?).
- While I find it weird that they (those students) are seeking for ‘tuition’, their willingness to learn should be lauded. They are students, after all. Sometimes they are put there not by their own choices (Of course, who doesn’t want to go to the ‘Best’ school). I also believe that they’ve noticed their shortcomings and is putting up an effort to better their knowledge to become a better doctor in the future.The last thing they need is another dead end.
- Lastly, enough with the prejudice, and it’s high time to come out and see the world. The trend these days is Evidence based____
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:06 pm
I am sorry I have to say this but this is what I saw at the ground level. Those Russian medical students and HOs are the worst product that I ever seen. I do not blame them and they are not stupid, they just went to the wrong school. They ask for tuition because they see such as large gap they are behind when they compare themselve to other medical students especially those local medical students and HOs. Let me tell you that they got extra forms of assessment by MOH to be filled by the HOD as compared to other HOs. I had met a few even admitted to those medical schools on forecast result of ART stream subjects.
The problem now in Malaysia is that anybody can study medicine as long as they got money. If you compare the HOs now and those ten years ago, most of my senior doctors in my hospital agree that the quality especially those from oversea had dropped so much. They can even clerk properly, they don’t even know how to calculate EDD of a pregnant lady. These are the doctors that once admitted to our system and will be sent to district to ‘kill’ people
November 24th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
I dont know about other uni but the one im studying right now do have a proper O&G professor, (and so does other departments as well).. and with structured training program. Its called recommendation guide for international students for each subject which is compiled in a booklet. The guide comprises of objectives, plan of lesson, task and problems and mcqs. The classes are according to the recommendation book and students will use that book as a guide to prepare for the next class.
No proper wards for students to see patients? As i remember, during my general surgery lesson, we were allowed to go anywhere within the ward and we were given a specific room (2 students for 1 room) which comprises about 6 patients and it depends on how fast you examine your patient and later present your case to your teacher at the end of the lesson. During my 1st semester Obstetric cycle we were in the doctor’s room watching ultrasound and at that time, we learn how to examine pregnant woman (how to take their case history for a pregnant woman, do their pelvimetry, how to do Leopald’s maneuver, etc etc.). About that person who doesn’t know how to calculate EDD of a pregnant lady, i don’t know why he couldn’t that but i learn that in my first Obs lecture. The thing is here, your exposure really depends on your teacher. If your teacher is a O&G diagnostician, you’ll spend a lot practising history taking, learning ultra sound. If your teacher is a O&G surgeon, you’ll spend a lot of time watching surgeries.
No written exam? What are you talking about? All final exams are in written, in Essay, even the worse part, there’s not even carry marks. We have to slaved ourselves before final to pass it and you’re saying that we have not written exams?! Thats ridiculous. Our lesson is evaluated daily, the teacher will ask your theorotical knowledge (either orally or in written) and that is why i never go to class unprepared because you don’t want to get 2(fail) for your class and have to repeat the lesson again.
Yes we clerk the patients in RUSSIAN.. and that is why we learn Russian language since 1st year. It shouldn’t be a problem if you’re a good student and know how to speak basic Russian. I have a mini-book comprising all questions in history taking and physical examination English-Russian for if there is any difficulties during history taking.
I really think its not the schools that they went, its the students themselves. And what is viva. Ive never heard of it. As far as im concern, if you study, you’ll pass ur exams. If you dont study you’ll fail, and will be given 2 more tries. If you still fail, you will have to repeat your whole year.
Of course the local graduates will have much more advantage than the overseas graduates. They’re used to the Malaysian clinical scenarios. And that is why it is compulsary for my uni to do elective attachment during summer in the local hospitals. And what makes me sad, (though ive never encountered any judgemental supervisors), most of my friends did face some discriminations from the local doctors. For god sake, we’re students!. We’re supposed to be guided and taught!. You being in such way is not helping at all. During my clinical attachment last year, my friend who is from South Hampton also said they were not allowed to do many stuff in their hospitals back in England for fear of getting sued. So mostly during clinical, they just wander around the hospitals and sometimes if things get busy, the hospital staff said go away, we’re busy. It really depends whether or not the patients and staff in that ward are cooperative or not. Some are great but some are just plain selfish.
Its not fair to say that those who are studying overseas are lacking in sense of knowledge behind those who are studying locallly. How about you check which HO who caused the famous baby’s hand gangrene case. A 5th year local student who doesnt know where common peroneal artery is?. I honestly think its the students themselves, not whether or not they are local or overseas graduates. Just because you’ve met with a few competent insufficient graduates, it does not mean that all of us are the same.
So what if those with money can study medicine?. Of course you need money to go to a medical school. And its not a crime for their parents to be rich and do not want to be bounded by the government for 10 years. Those who are very wealthy can go to Ireland or do a twinning programme in PMC + Ireland and those who are not so wealthy can go to cheaper countries like India or Russia. But rest assured because all are screened by the higher education ministry based on our SPM / A-Level or matriculation results. I do not know anyone here who are from art stream. THere are a number of army scholars in my uni. Mara partial loans and those who are funded by their states respectively. Taking me for example, I get 8As for my SPM (B for add maths), and because i got 3.4 during my 2 years Pre Pharmacy foundation and not 3.5 as required, i couldn’t get into the local medical faculty. (I used to study in IIUM, the matriculation programme there is different from the standard matriculation programme in other university). Since you have to get 3.0 and above to study here in my uni, i went here.
Its not like 100% who are in the local medical faculty are all top scorers anyway. Some of them got in because of connections. And either they turn out to be just fine doctors or drop out. People are not stupid for the rest of their lives you know. Just because they’re not one of the top scorers in SPM, doesn’t mean they can’t be a good doctor. Those who are top scorers in SPM, doesn’t mean they’re going to be a good doctor either.
I suggest you find concrete information about the curriculum here in Russia before you make such statement based just because somebody tells you this and that. So cliche.
November 24th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
No hard feeling. Whatever I said was based on the information given by those Russian elective students in my hospital. Maybe I haven’t met a brilliant Russian HO but till then, I reserve my biased view.
November 25th, 2007 at 1:19 am
poor doctor, may I know which hospital are you working in, and if you can remember, which university are the russian elective students from? and which year are they in, because as far as I know, the subject of Obs are only taught in 4th year.
November 25th, 2007 at 4:43 am
The MMC should apologize to the Ukraine/Russian students and all Malaysians.
Look at the consequence of its irresponsible act.
November 25th, 2007 at 4:51 am
thank you to “rufusqueen” for the in-depth explaination, i am relieved to see someone beats me to it
i shall make it clear that i am currently in my 6th year of medical study in Russia.
Personally, i think the negative publicity is spreading like wild bondfire, and it is definately not a good thing. seriously, the misconception and the biased view of many malaysian doctors/specialist on Russian Medical Grads is not right to begin with.
First, of all, as the proverb goes: don’t judge a book by its cover. so, it is not WHERE you graduated from that makes u a good doctor. It is how much knowledge one have, and how one apply it properly in clinical setting!
to “poor doctor”, to lable one as “bad” until it has been proven to you that it is wrong is not a very good attitude. Why? well, let’s just put it this way, if u were a specialist and u were to monitoring on a group of fresh-grad housemen and u have this kind of concept in your mind, it is hard for u not to exaggerate when u find a small mistake in a RUssian Grad! and on the other hand, u might just be more gentle with other new houseman and give them guidance in a more pleasant manner. In the end, us, the Russian grad will only receive mistreatment! Now, that is NOT FAIR! (obviously, fresh-grad lack the experince and are prone to making silly mistakes. Don’t tell me u have never seen houseman from local grads make mistakes? Even at your houseman year, i am sure u have made yours too!) learning from those mistakes is what made u a wiser man now!
ok, back to the topic. I have to explain here that Russia is one the the country which medical studies is still based on so-called classic/traditional system, where-else malaysia universities are having integrated system. Each of these have its pros and cons and i don’t think it is what i am going to elaborate on today. Just to make things clear, the 3rd year students in russia is yet to attend an Obs/Gynae. Obs/Gynae is included in the syllabus of 4th course.
In fact, i am not afraid to tell you that the first 3 years of medical studies, as according to the classical system, involve mainly theorical medical sciences. It is during these 3 years that we study mainly on the etiology, pathogenesis of pathology. This will later be applied in our clinical years (4th to 6th course). it is important, because 1 disease can be presented in many different clincal pictures. Knowing the sciences behind the pathology help us to be orientated in the possible clinical presentation and also what kind of treatment to be used. (yea, sure, memorising standard drug used for a single disease is good for treatment. but understanding WHY you use it is equally important)
as of 4th – 6th course of our study years, we have our lectures and tutorial classes in hospital EVERYDAY! we see patient EVERYDAY! We take patient history all the time. Are u seriously thinking Russia University will have their medical courses modelled in such a way that there is no contact with patients? Oh yes, we do clerk our patient in RUssian, coz that is pretty much the only language they speak. I supossed you are not expecting us to speak to them in English will u? I mean, do you clerk your non-literated kampung folk in English back in Malaysia??
No a proper O&G professor? this is gonna be a joke. who do u think that is teaching us? some toilet cleaner? First of all, the Obstetric and Gyneacology is 2 different departments in my uni. And we are taught with up-to-date material by the specialist of the respective field. Most are either proffesors, head of department. our tuturial class is taught by the prof, or in some cases, senior doctors who have years of experince! We do ward rounds and we do clerk our patients. And in gynaecology department, we even did bimanual inspection and observe hysteroscopic examination daily!! i even doubt that in malaysia that male student get consent from female patients as much as we do here in Russia. Patients are generally more cooperative here, which sum up to be a better learning experience!
no written exam except viva? this is a myth i shall bust today
our grading system is rather gruesome i shall say. Credits for practical classes must be obtained before one is allowed to take the exam. And this is no easy mean, since attending classes does not mean u will get your credits. the teacher will assess your knowledge DAILY! trust me, going to class without preparing for the topic is simply stupid/suicidal, coz they will make u repeat the same class in an additional class later. The ways of assessment varies (sometimes MCQ,sometimes case-study, sometime viva).
As for exam, it is always done in 3 stages: MCQ, Essays and Cases. (in essays and cases, u will be asked orally in more detail if your written answer is not satisfying/substandard!) This is not easy, coz you cant fake your knowledge by giving a general remarks! they will get down to the bottom of it. It is funny how sometimes, it makes u voluntarily tell the examiner that you would like to retake the exam just because at one point during their interrogation, u kind of knew what grades they are giving you :p
i hope this will clear up the air of confusion about Russian medical students. It is indeed making me feel a little bit dishearted upon hearing negative commends about us. Not enough that we study like mad, not enough that we have to master Russian language in order to study Medicine, not enough that we are far from home without support of families, not enough that we have to bear the guilt of having our parents pay for our studies just because we are not lucky enough to get into local uni, not enough that we get discriminated by foreigner at times, not enough that we are sincerely hoping to serve mankind, i just hope ppl will not judge us for who we are not!
November 25th, 2007 at 10:25 am
edric and rufusqueen: Maybe you all are right but this is what I saw at the ground level. I practice in a major district hospital in Klang Valley and I’m a senior consultant in charge of all these HOs. I regularly accept the elective students from many universities especially the Russian and local private medical school. Maybe some of you will be posted to my hospital in the future and to prove me wrong.
Over the years I had seen the deterioration of HO quality but beside the dubious standard of medical schools, it is well known in the medical community that to get a medical seat nowaday is so much more easier compare to my era 17 years ago and much much more affordable.
Those overseas medical graduate that I had so far came from countries like Iraq, Sri Lanka, Russia, Indonesia and even UK, most of them have have problem of knowledge (not the attitude). They can’t calculate EDD, they can’t differentiate pulmonary edema and acute exacerbation of asthma, they can’t read CTG or interprate partogram, they can’t present case properly during ward round etc. They don’t know how to diagnose pre-eclampsia or even don’t know what is the level of hypertensive crisis. They don’t know how to interprate lab results. When they are asked to prepare presentation for department CME, they don’t even know how to search for their facts or material, they don’t know how to search literature on internet. WOuld you believe me that one of them actually telling me that she don’t even know what is an ectopic pregnancy? I nearly fainted. This is how sorry the state of HO quality nowadays. All these reflect the poor medical training in their medical school.
So I was left no choice, I cannot depend on my HO in management of O&G patients because the risk of litigation is very high. I cannot even rely them on the info they gave me about the patient because they are simply not reliable. I heavily dependent on my specialist and MOs. You can’t expect me to train them in 4 months for what they should have learn in their medical school. Yet after 4 months I have to ‘pass’ them and release them to other posting. I have no choice, I cannot extend them indefinately because I were to do that based on their inadequate knowledge, most of them will be forever in my department. I only extend HOs with attitude problem.
Just to sidetrack, ‘not enough that we are sincerely hoping to serve mankind’ by edric. Don’t say thing that you’re not prepare to do, you will probably regret on this. When you are in your HO posting, you will probably fight with your fellow HOs on who should do more weekend calls, why you have to do EOD calls or more call than your senior HO, why you should tag for 2 weeks till 10pm, who should do the backlog discharge summaries left by other HOs, refuse to do district posting, refuse to be sent to East Malaysia. You will probably say that you will serve even though you are lowly paid because you have ‘the passion’ of serving the sick and weak but than you will complaint about the workload and low pay just like any other doctor and later join the private sector because you can’t survive on the low pay and sick of the MOH system but forgetting the poor patients that you promise to serve when you are inspired to become a doctor.
November 25th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
dear “poor doctor”, upon reading what u’ve replied about stuff ur HO didn’t know/doesn’t know, admittingly, i will faint as well :p
it is true that there is an influx of HO in the recent years, and there’s certainly less quantity of senior officers that can guide them. I see the problem there: keep them 4 months in one department and pass them wether u want it or not. Because if one hold too many HO back in 1 department, the HO from the other department wont be able to switch place with them. And that will disrupt the whole flow of HO schedule. Most probably the hospital director is gonna ask why
so, here, i urge all medical students to be more aware of the teaching given to u. Sometimes we tend to get spoon-fed, sometime too exam/result orientated. Please step on step behind and always review your lesson daily to understand how the thing u learn is used in real practise.
and about “poor doctor” comment about “saying things i’m not prepared for”: well, i guess i am a bit emotional earlier on
i do foresees the things u say. Commitment to our profession is a huge respondsibility (maybe huge is not big enough to descript it). I’ll try not to pretend i understand it before i start working. Afterall, standing at my position (6th year medical student) will never allow me to level me to see things as you see on equal ground 
cheer for all doctors
November 25th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
In summer 2008, the first batch of recognised Russian students will
graduate and there will be a huge influx of housemen that the country
has never experienced before. I am looking forward to knowing the
overall evaluation of their quality.
If the russian schools can produce qualifying young doctors, i would
congratulate the whole nation and its people as Malaysia will no
longer lack of doctors in the very near future, thankful to the
government for its decision made in 2002 which make a historical
change to the country’s health system.
If the future truth came to be negative, you couldn’t imagine the
consequence. Such issue could be the hottest topic in Malaysia for
the subsequence years when most patients will have to be wary of
where their doctors have graduated, when you find that your housemen
are unreliable.
To Mr. poordoctor, i wish you could understand that the MMC holds
more responsibility than the students themselves, you know what
i mean.
November 25th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
I really hope I may be wrong but I am not optimistic. For me,MMC is the toothless tiger. The Russian medical schools come into the picture because there was a big demand for medical seats which were previously filled by the Indian medical schools. Since Indian medical schools charging more fee and seats reduced for the foreign students, the politician have to look elsewhere and they suceeded in making the MMC to recognise the Russian medical schools which previously not the country we used to go for medical seats. MMC cannot do anything, they have to follow cabinet instruction.
November 25th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
Its just not right to generalize all graduates from Russia like you said, more over with the malicious statement you made regarding medical institutes in Russia. I hope in the future when more recognised students graduate, they will perform and change the negative impression that the minority seniors have implied. I assure you that most of my batch are qualified enough to do medicine, not just some Tom Dick and Harry like what patdave proclaim. You don’t have to be optimistic if you want to but you can’t be bias to only graduates from Russia as im sure all graduates from other universities are not perfect as well. When i did my elective attachment last year in a local university hospital, no HO knows which target organ damage for a hypertension crisis patient who has complaint of dizziness, vertigo, confusion when the HOD asked them during morning rounds. I suppose they either know but was not confident to answer or it just slips off their mind. The HOD pointed at me, obviously i answered brain. DUH. Zzzz. I bet not all of the HOS there are Russia or Ukraine graduates. I encounter another elective student (not from Russia or Ukraine or Indonesia or India) who doesn’t know the place for puncture of a thoracocentesis procedure. Once again i would like to emphasize, its not the universities. Its the students.
To poor doctor, next time when there is elective student from Russia, it will save you some disappointment if you ask the student which year she/he is in and avoid asking O&G or Pediatric questions to a 2nd year students from Russia who just finish their Anatomy, Physiology, Biochemistry and Histology.
To all of us students, i wish know our stuff well especially starting 3rd year where it WILL be asked back when we work. All the best everyone.
November 26th, 2007 at 7:33 am
I agree it is very difficult to generalise. There are good and bad HOs coming from both “established” local Unis as well as from those abroad. However, the medical schools with more stringent academic entry requirements will naturally take in the better students and generally (though not always, as academic brilliance is not the only thing which makes a good doctor) produce better medical graduates.
Since standards are so varying nowadays, I think it is high time we have the Malaysian equivalent of the USMLE, that is to say, perhaps it is high time we have a Common Qualifying Examination for all.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:45 am
i will not say no to a common exam, but it takes years to actually successfully design a working model for such examination.
In stead, for short term solution, IF an common examination is going to be imposed, my suggestion will be: let ALL medical grad (both local and abroad) to additionally pass at least one of these:
(1) USMLE step 1 (maybe step 2 CK)
(2) MRCP part 1 (maybe part 2 written)
(3) AMC MCQ
(4) GMC PLAB step1
or equivalent. At least these examinations are generally accepted. Cost will be a major factor though, maybe if our government will bear the cost or at least subsidize partially, it could be done.
this coupled with 2 year housemanship assessment would be good enough.
of course, that is just my opinion.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
My vote for a common qualifying exam if it will be applied for both local and overseas graduates to make everything fair and square. It would be better if ‘extra curriculum” will be taken into account too, such as medical related volunteering during your studies, (some medical students i know took part in mercy programme and did their electives in rural places such as in Angola, vietnam and boy they did a lot of stuff there), your elective attachments with recommendations etc etc. All that should be taken into consideration. Not just the scores. Like we all know, pure academic doesn’t necessarily make a good doctor.
November 26th, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Common qualifying exam will not work at this country. It will be like another CLP exam. Imagine if local students fail the exam, the government will have a lot of explaination to do especially those students (Bumi students especially) who are on JPA scholarship. Where should they go after they fail exam? because they suppose to do 10 years compulsary but on the other hand they can’t practice because they fail exam.
On the other hand, if student from overseas (especially those on FAMA scholarship) failed, the government will be accused to be not fair to them, favour the local student etc. The fact is if this exam ever to be carried out, most likely it will be based on local system, enviroment and patients. The local students will naturally have big advantage t pass because the exam especially the clinical exam will be familiar to them, they should have no problem of passing it.
But this may be different for foreign trained student especially those not from the british based system. They will have a cultural shock. The spectrum of patient and clinical presentation of patient will be completely different from the country they studied the medicine. They are most likely to fail because of this. So if this happen, the government, the MOH and MMC will be accused to be biased to them, not being fair to them and I’m afraid they might have to go to the street to protest at that time to get their voice heard.
It is their best interest for those foreign graduate NOT to have this exam. Whatever the outcome of the exam nobody will get statisfied if they failed whether they are local graduate or foreign graduate.
November 27th, 2007 at 5:21 am
I guess I don’t have to continue giving negative comments to poor doctor abt the overseas students (please keep in mind ppl) because HE SEES THINGS AT THE GROUND LEVEL. Haha, Pls excuse me from laughing. But its really funny to see such a forum from a “qualified-doctor” commenting abt the Medical “students”.
I worked in O&G department for 2 years for my summer attachment, I was posted there for one week in each year with a very good specialist.I was in 2nd year when I first posted with him, and he is concerned abt the subjects I have studied and what I have not, he gave students lectures, gave me a chance to conduct the delivery when I was just a 2nd year student, include us in any seminars held in the hospital, clerking few patients in a day, and that time I had just completed my Biochem, Physiology, Histo and Anat. I was too surprise that he never doubt our ability of perform. Why he has never comment on my bad clerking, ( as how bias you’ve seen in this case)And he is a “specialist”. Instead he never stop teaching us abt many things, shared with us his experiences studying in US for his specialist, guiding us to the right way and warning us abt the toughness in medicine field. He always assure that we will revise all the cases when we got home and present to him the next day and we need to be in the hospital before 730am every morning. Pls don’t tell me he did good to us because he is one of the overseas graduater.
Posted in this department with him is the most stressful thing I had in the hospital but why I never feel being critisize or why I still keep learning more and more at home so that I can perform the next day? Its all because I want to work hard for what I am focusing in.I did that, NOT TO PROVE TO THE MALAYSIAN GRADUATORS THAT I AM CAPABLE, BUT I AM LEARNING IT FOR MYSELF BUT NO ONE ELSE!
Why dont you yourself try to re think abt the attitude you put onto the medical students, the bias view among the overseas students? And as a senior doctor, will you ever think that in the position of student? Will you be happy being scolded by specialist? Haha, I guess not! Pls dun jugde the others without judging yourself. And yeah, need not to remind us that you are seeing us at ground level, and we respect you as a senior doctors and you have to see us as a student. Yeah right, maybe you have scored all As in your whatever exam, but I doubt that the most successful person in this world might be the dumber, and might not be rank by grades. And I have even seen young doctors completed their specialist and starts their very good career overseas.
It is very rational that it’ll be bit hard for a graduated overseas student to work in hospital in Mal, in each country, there are varies of systems, many diseases we learnt here are not exist in Mal and vice versa. And the other way round I am very sure that you will be having problem working in Russia or UK. And its not because that you are not able to work or you are not a good doctor, but too bad you are still a human who needs to adapt the life in different places. Not to say abt the russian language. Why we deserve being criticise in learning medicine in russian language? Why don’t you think it is a positive way. Study medicine itself is not an easy job but pls be more decent, giving us some thought that it will be tougher to learn in other language. If the government do not support us, why they have to send so many students overseas? And why they are recognizing other overseas universities? If Mal is sooo good, then why don’t just DIS ALLOW those potential future doctors to study overseas and hide themselves only in Mal, learn and expose themselves only in Mal and no where else. And even UK you said, haha. Now I know why the Mal student refuse to work in their own country after graduation. And almost all the medicine uni in each countries you mentioned are recognized by the gov,and do you mean that all the uni all over the world are bad except Malaysian Uni?
Yeah right, I guess there goes the slogan : Malaysia Boleh!
Pls be fair to those students who really study very hard to obtain a good grade and working so hard to be a good doctor in future, and don’t assume a one person as a whole continent(being bias over 2000 students in Russia just because of 1 HO who is working under you).And pls do not degrade us by all your unspecific views. The doctors do not have to be the smartest but with hard work anyone can be a doctor!
And to your surprises, the 4th year Malaysian student do not know how to measure blood pressure, they do not know how to collect the blood as well, and the HO examine the rectum through the vagina. Well, have we ever complain or bad mouth abt the Malaysian students? NO. I guess helping each other is the most basic thing you need to know before entering medicine school. And as what I have just mentioned, it might just applied to “some” students but not all. That is why we never see them bias-ly. I have myself few medical friends studying in local universities and I don’t think I have to reveal the bad side of their system just because of this one meaningless forum.
And if you were to reply my comments here, I don’t think there is a need. Cause it will be only ending up by you pulling me down and by me pulling you worst. And its such a joke seeing Malaysians killing Malaysians. At least I feel ashame abt it, instead of degrading one person by one person, degrading the whole medical system in a country, why don’t you save your time to train up a better HO? Pls don’t tell me its not your job. I am sure that you did not obtain all the medical knowledges when you first graduated as HO. That is why everyone has to go through step by step.
I conclude my comment by asking you not to have hard feelings abt it. That was how you were asking us not to have hard feelings after your bias view.
November 27th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
I agree that to become doctor, you need not need to be the smartest but you need the passion. But you have to understand that in O&G, the patient demand a very high standard of care and they do not allow any mistake or morbidity. The patients expect absolutely zero defect especially in obstetric. Any mistake that the HOs did will resulted me as the senior consultant to resolve the matter.
It is GOOD that you have the passion to learn to become doctor but in reality but people like you are becoming rare species. HOs usually works like a robot without using their brain. Even that, the robot have to be programmed with correct and up to date software. Many of these HOs came without any basic knowledge like I mention before such as calculating EDD, Partogram, simple history taking, recognising risk factors or diagnose some important disorder such as hypertensive disorder in pregnancy and gestational diabetes. They came with lack of these knowledge which they should have learn in their medical school. This reflect the quality of their medical school (or thier doubious standard of selecting the medical students).
Imagine that you have to teach these HOs again and again, 5 or 6 time per year the same topics just to learn the basic. The housemanship in each posting is only 4 months, they should gain clinical management experience during this period. They should not come and trying to learn O&G as though they are fresh medical student. When you are in my position, I own my patients the responsibility of providing the patient quality care.
About those elective students that came to my hospital, they usually spend one or 2 weeks in my deparmtent. I am most happy to teach them anything during my clinic session. Often they attended one session and disappeared the rest of the week, is it my responsibility to make sure they attend my department activity? Your specialist willing to teach you because you shown your interest in medicine. Same here, the student have to show their interest in the first place.
Studying medicine need passion and is a lifelong commitment to your future patients. Many of the students nowadays just do not have the passion they think they have. They want to do medicine because they think it’s a secure job, a job that you can earn big buck and fame. My hospital also receive those SPM ‘top scorers’ every year before they apply their scholarship. Every year without fail, I asked them why they want to become doctor? Almost 100% of them will say they want to serve mankind, help the poor and weak etc. And also majority of them want to become cardiologist!(I wonder why, probably influenced by the media agaian) The same answer was also given by those elective students.
But when they are back as HOs, again and again, I will see the same problems. They fight over who do more weekend calls, they argue who should do the discharge summaries. They refuse to attend teaching session. SOme even have attitude and disiplinary problem like absent from work and calls, come late, rude to patient, refuse distric posting, complaining low pay etc. These problem exist in every batch of HOs. They just forgot the reason why they want to become doctor.
My purpose of arguing with students like you all here is to make you all realise that your vision of becoming doctor may not be the kind of ideal, glamourous doctor that may exist in your medical school or medical TV series. In real life, the situation is less than ideal, you will face a lot of challenge and probably have the shock of what you will face during you housemanship. Many of you will start breaking down and performing like a robot just to get life going. Some will ended with attitude and disciplinary problem as their coping mechanism when their life as doctor doesn’t match what they expected. AT the end of the day it is the passion and you sense of responsibility towards your patients that get you going in you medical career. This is the factors which make you go for extra mile, which make you do extra weekend call without complaining or taking lower salary or serving in rural area.
November 28th, 2007 at 8:04 am
With your previous reply, I must say that you deserve a better respect from me.I understand all the circumstances you’ve mentioned, being a senior consultant, you have the responsibility to make sure the quality of each doctors under you. But I must said that in all medical schools over the world will not produce 100% genuine doctors.The most important is oneself. And because of this, I think you should stop seeing everyone with your bias view. Because if this continues, your “good intention” to make us realize the vision of becoming a doctor will end up de-motivating all the students. And I am sure sometimes even MO or senior doctors will have mistakes.And only one mistake is enough for us to carry the “name” the rest of our life.
And you have no idea how insecure abroad students feel everyday studying “not in Malaysia” because they do not know what is the correct path to choose when they first graduate esp those student in Russia including myself. Being in dilemma asking myself again and again where will I end up working after 2 years? Many abroad students who are luckier will be able to enter good medical school in better countries like UK, Aus or US. After graduating,they will just directly continue working in the country they graduated. But for us, we do not have a choice. We will not be able work in Russia and thus our future path hardest among all.
We can choose to work in Mal, but now we see how the Malaysian doctors look at us and how they de-motivate us. If I were to choose again, I will of course wish for a better medicine school but in terms of financial wise, I guess I can only enter those uni in Russia or Indonesia which are much cheaper. Who wants to study in a country speaks not english, high living expenses, dangerous? I guess if you ask all the Russia students to re-choose, NOBODY wants it. Thus I must ask you to reconsider your bias-view on us. And of course you do not have to understand how we feel because this is not your job,but at least stop commenting on such a forum esp directly shooting on us, those in Russia.We aren’t aliens. We are really studying hard for our degree,and times harder for a russian degree.
And I believe everyone aware of the toughness in medical field.A HO ever shared her feelings to me telling me her life is a dead life and she’d wished so much to jump out from 6th floor. But she knew that HO is a stage where all the doctors have to go through, thus I really hope the MO or senior doctors may help each other BUT of course students play the most important role to work hard for the degree. I believe when there is no theory,one can do nothing practically. All the passion and time given out will reward us one satisfaction. That is the reason why we want to be a doctor
November 28th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Yes, i agree with what Bie said. Life could be tough in Russia, eventhough
i myself in studying in the capital-Moscow! You feel “sooo not belong
to here”. After six years of such life, when you should be happy going
back to Malaysia, yet what awaits you is the confrontation to be
discriminated by your own Malaysian doctors!
You should understand that, many of us (i should say there are certain
amounts of lousy students here) are good students who did well in
STPM. We came to Russia because we couldn’t enter local uni due to
the reasons known by everyone.
To poordoctor, i understand that to some extent our knowledge is
behind other graduates because they have their own system here and
somemore you had to study everything in Russian which makes it even
tougher. However, next time when you see the Russian graduates, you
should know that they are your fellow Malaysians who are no difference
from other graduates who worked hard in the secondary school and
academic years. We came to Russia because the government has created
a pathway for us who couldn’t get into local uni and whose parents
aren’t so rich to send us to medical schools in english-speaking
countries, so we wouldn’t end up in studying other courses just like
many did before the recognition in 2002.
November 29th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
No one will understand, no matter how much we explain.
and nobody even thinks of going to RUssia for a tour. It’s like “sebab setitik nila, rosak susu sebelanga” and “katak di bawah tempurung” (no offense intended).
We just have to do our part and do it well, amidst criticism and dissent.
November 29th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
I think regardless of where a person graduates from, it’s ultimately a very personal thing. No one will choose to endure the hardship of med school just for the fun of it. In the end, it’s a person’s work, heart and attitude that will determine how ‘good’ a person is. Once upon a time, Manipal grads were looked down upon too. Not anymore. I’m proud to be a Manipal product. Those days I had to endure scorn from people too. They think Indian grads are lousy. I refused to listen nor take it to heart.Of course there are black sheep. Not one med school in this world can boast of not having any bad apples. So all you peeps in foreign med schools, work hard, study hard, gain the knowledge, do your best and come back and be your best and give your best. There will always be critics, but there will also always be people who will help you along and guide you. Cheers!
July 29th, 2008 at 2:06 am
hi, i felt that only Indians studying in russia are treated badly by doctors in India. I would like to say none of you can understand the pain each student. Most of doctors working in India or Malaysia can never have those can have the talents and confidence those who study in Russia. Yes, maybe some have not studied so it doesnt mean that all do not study.Most of us are determined to become doctor but have no much money to study in india or Malaysia.if you are so concerned thst your country medical students should be able to become good doctors then help us. Take the initiative to help us.Will any one of you do it? No none of you…You have words to discourage us, insult us? How many of you have said to a medical student from Russia to get some practical knowledge in your hospital? How many of you in Medical councils think that you can help us to get some good training of two years in governmant hospitals instead of keeping exam which is a kind of harrassement.Even after studying for 7 years in a country like Russia our own country hinders us to become good doctors.if you were good doctors you would be helping us not discouraging us.
Very few doctors I have seen who understand me and encourage me.there are time i was insulted just because I was studying in Russia.But i will go ahead and become some day a good Doctor. All the best to all who are doing medicine in Russian, Belarus, Ukraine ets……..If our own ppl cant help us…the Creator,our God is with us. God bless…
August 24th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Imagine,if you are yourself a mdical graduate from russia.It is not necessary that all the doctors from Russia are incompetent.However, there will be some good and some bad. Even, that’s happens in every country.
In conlusion, I know, some best doctors Russian’s gradute, working in the UK and leading various departments. Eventhough my self is graduated from pakistan, a British citizen and working in the uk at present.